How do you improve air efficiency?

[slimtim_nr1]

Hey

I am playing woodsball with friends and i noticed that my A5 consumes more air than others

Is there any way to improve the air consumtion? Make it use less air..

[tblack]

get a larger cyclone airline, Palmers regualator, Vortex upgrade and Techt exhaust housing, polish your internals mildly, get an unported barrel and maybe a titanium bolt if you dont have an Egrip.

[patriot14t20]

Originally Posted by tblack

get a larger cyclone airline, Palmers regualator, Vortex upgrade and Techt exhaust housing, polish your internals mildly, get an unported barrel and maybe a titanium bolt if you dont have an Egrip.

im not sure a bigger cyclone air line will do anything, nor will a un-ported barrel,( i have tested the ported vs. and unported, no difference in air consumption) and i think you mean a titanium rear hammer and not bolt, which i havent tried, but i dont see the air getting and better, polishing you internals will help the cycle rate, the palmers is your best bet, or a low pressure kit

[brower]

palmers stab and rva

[markerman]

If you bought A-5 it's something you have to deal with. Just get a bigger tank.

[patriot14t20]

Originally Posted by markerman

If you bought A-5 it's something you have to deal with. Just get a bigger tank.

not really, as said above you can get a palmers stab or a LPK, but the a-5 is a gas hog, the t-tech piston housing should help a bit too

[druid]

Originally Posted by patriot14t20

1. im not sure a bigger cyclone air line will do anything,
2. nor will a un-ported barrel,( i have tested the ported vs. and unported, no difference in air consumption)

and i think you mean a titanium rear hammer and not bolt, which i havent tried, but i dont see the air getting and better, polishing you internals will help the cycle rate,

3. the palmers is your best bet, or a low pressure kit

1. That would only positively feed the cyclone with air, more so than the smaller line.
2. I must respectfully disagree but you need to take into consideration, the amount of porting in - and the length of - a particular barrel to make the statement you did. A 14" barrel with only a bit of porting or muzzle "flash" ports will have little to no difference - there I agree. However in barrels that have a large quantity of porting in 3 or 4 rows and to at least half the barrel, requires more air source (HPA) to keep up the fps in the barrel. When the ball passes the first rows of porting, the air is starting to be bled out. That means the ball starts to slow from drag in the bore. Eliminating the porting means more air stays behind the ball longer and thus, can be tuned a bit lower than a barrel with a lot of porting. We aren't talking a lot of air...perhaps only a few psi at best...but a few psi times 1000 paintballs can be a lot.
3. I agree with the Palmers but not necessarily with the LP kit. The general principle behind an LP kit is "lower pressure but more volume." Some people (not me) say that these facts cancel each other out but I haven't done it to a tippmann so I can't speak to their behaviors. I have made LP Spyders that DID get better shots-per-tank...but we're only talking a few pods at best.

SlimTim...to tune the marker with a regulator, you need to search my name in the "advanced search" field and find the topics I authored. The one in partuicular - "maintain your reg"...or something similar....will tell you how to properly tune your reg to that marker.

[CousinVin]

I've never really tested it. Although the winter is coming up and I will have to use my A5 some more in the winter. It looks like I'll have to move from my normal speedball habits over to some MilSim for the winter. I've always wanted an MP5 A5

[patriot14t20]

Originally Posted by druid

.
2. I must respectfully disagree but you need to take into consideration, the amount of porting in - and the length of - a particular barrel to make the statement you did. A 14" barrel with only a bit of porting or muzzle "flash" ports will have little to no difference - there I agree. However in barrels that have a large quantity of porting in 3 or 4 rows and to at least half the barrel, requires more air source (HPA) to keep up the fps in the barrel. When the ball passes the first rows of porting, the air is starting to be bled out. That means the ball starts to slow from drag in the bore. Eliminating the porting means more air stays behind the ball longer and thus, can be tuned a bit lower than a barrel with a lot of porting. We aren't talking a lot of air...perhaps only a few psi at best...but a few psi times 1000 paintballs can be a lot.
3. I agree with the Palmers but not necessarily with the LP kit. The general principle behind an LP kit is "lower pressure but more volume." Some people (not me) say that these facts cancel each other out but I haven't done it to a tippmann so I can't speak to their behaviors. I have made LP Spyders that DID get better shots-per-tank...but we're only talking a few pods at best.

its the tests i have done with barrels porting all the way end to end i seen now more air consumption than the same sized barrel with no porting, if you think about it when the the marker fires, all the air that is used is used the valve doesnt stay open longer to push that ball out, the only difference i seen was in sound.mmmmmmm

and on the Lp kit, i have seen a friend use one on a 98 and he increased shots per tank , as you just said you did too with a sypder, i havent tried a lp kit on a a-5 as well, but why would a lp kit work on a 98 custom and your spyder and not on a a-5?mmmmmmm

[druid]

Originally Posted by patriot14t20

its the tests i have done with barrels porting all the way end to end i seen now more air consumption than the same sized barrel with no porting,
Which, I find extremely odd. I surmise a paint-to-bore mismatch but that's only an opinion
if you think about it when the the marker fires, all the air that is used is used the valve doesnt stay open longer to push that ball out, the only difference i seen was in sound.mmmmmmm
That is dependent on a whole lot of variables that I cannot control. When you modify a marker, say polish internals, no two people will polish them the same quality, nor will each valve/striker behave identically. I'm saying that in a "completely stock, out of the box" condition, test a marker with 3 barrels...
1. stock barrel (7" no porting)
2. 12" barrel, no porting (other than say...a muzzle break)
3. 14" barrel with a ton of porting.
4. 14" non ported barrel.
5. Proper paint to bore fit.

If you tune the marker to the 14"/high ported barrel to 300fps...and then switch the 14" non ported barrel, the velocity should be slightly higher. Then swap to a 12"/no ported barrel and using a tank that had the SAME amount of air, the velocity should be somewhat higher. Then switch to the stock barrel and the velocity should be higher still. This is dependent on the fact that the air source was at the same pressure for each test and the bore-to-paint match is optimal.
and on the Lp kit, i have seen a friend use one on a 98 and he increased shots per tank , as you just said you did too with a sypder, i havent tried a lp kit on a a-5 as well, but why would a lp kit work on a 98 custom and your spyder and not on a a-5?mmmmmmm

I haven't done it to my A5 yet because I just got it and I'm still "checking it out" in it's current configuration. That and I am saving for the LP kit...lol.

I'm not saying putting an LP kit on a HP marker is a bad thing...I'm saying that things will change in how the marker behaves when you alter the parameters of it's original design. In the last sentence where I said that LP may/may not change usage consumption goes to the fact that variables will affect how it performs.

I eluded to the "two schools of thought" on the subject, I guess I have to explain them.

1. The thought that converting an LP marker to LP will positively affect efficiency is based upon the fact that you are 'dumbing-down' the pressure usage from ~850/900 psi hitting the ball to about ~450psi. That equates (to some) a savings of ~550 psi per ball and thus, makes the marker more efficient.

2. The other thought is that while yes, you are lowering pressures from ~850 down to ~450, there is a need for more volume of air to be stored and used for a shot. While the pressure is low, the volume is (in essence) doubled and therefore, cancells out the low pressure "savings" listed in #1.

I don't subscribe to either theory because one modified marker will behave differently against a similarly modified marker. That's because there are just some variables that remain out of our control...like manufacturing tolerences, maintenence behaviors, viscocity differences in lubricants (or amount of lubricant applied), O Ring size variations and so forth.

Do I think LP kits are a good thing? Yes I do but not as an "end all" for making a marker more efficient. What makes a marker more efficient is what the user does to it to make it that way and that can be any number of things - polishing internals, keeping them slick, not wasting air around the ball, nor through barrel porting, etc etc....

In my example of barrel portings and lengths...the longer barrel requires more air to push the ball out of the muzzle. That's evidenced by the heightened velocity in the non-ported and shorter barrels. To lessen the air going down the bore behind the paint, you need to turn down the air going to it. That means turning the velocity down. Now I'll admit that the system in a Tippmann is different than in a Spyder...the Spyder actually lessens how hard, and thus how long, the valve stays open when you adjust the screw/spring tension. I'm not that familiar [yet] with how the Tippmann valve works by comparison but I know that the velocity adjuster in the valve only disrupts the flow...or cause turbulence. The only real change would be an RVA...which changes the amount of spring tension there is on the striker that hits the valve open. In this respect, it works just like the Spyder (kind of...the spyder valve gets a lower tension spring to go with making it LP) by controlling how long the valve 'dwell" is (how longit's open and as measured in milliseconds).