Tank Relocation?!?

Jaron · #21 (**permalink**) 05-16-2008, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spiritus Raptor

most regs act as a limiter of pressure, not something that allows for additional volume for LIQUID to turn to GAS. So how is it that you say an exp. chamber is worthless? It creates extra room between the source and the entry of the marker. Obviously a reg would help...

Any quality reg will block liquid CO2 going past it, thus eliminating the need for any specific place for it to fully evaporate. Not only that but it prevents the pressure spikes that happen with CO2. And without worrying about temperature/pressure variances you don't need to re-chrono throughout the day either. Expansion chambers can't do any of this. They give a little extra space for CO2 to evaporate but they can't keep liquid from being siphoned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spiritus Raptor

...but a decent reg is a min. of 60 and you can pick up exp. chambers for like 10 bucks and it's a good starting point.

Yes, regs are more expensive but once you get one the x chamber is largely obsolete. You can just put that $10 toward a reg to start with rather than having the extra $10 bulk on your marker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spiritus Raptor

Why not run a cmi r-2000 inline reg to the expansion chamber, sounds like that would work well to me, and you'd have a setup that would work well for hpa too, because you could lower your psi more without experiencing shootdown b/c of the extra volume.

Shootdown happens due to lack of pressure, not volume. As CO2 gets colder the vapor pressure drops and so too does the pressure inside the air lines but the volume remains the same. Quality regs can easily recharge 20x / sec or more so as long as the input pressure is high enough they will never starve your marker even at high rates of fire. X chambers can only act as volumizers when hooked directly to the tombstone; some are like this, some aren't. Even then the volume inside usually isn't close to what a real LPK volumizer has so any operating pressure drop will be minimal.

Regulators outperform x chambers in every way. Unless you're on a really tight budget, it's best to just bite the bullet and go straight to the reg.

The Spiritus Raptor · #22 (**permalink**) 05-23-2008, 02:41 PM

but in order to get a reg that can handle what you want to do with it, aka blocking liquid co2, you have to get a reg that can do that (and there aren't that many b/c most are designed for hpa). the least expensive and effective is the cmi reg. (~50) a bit less if you find a deal, and the palmers reg. (which is what i'm assuming your talking about~100 for the stab.). And when you say it's from lack of pressure you are correct but everything we are discussing is dependent on what operating pressure you want to run at. You may not have enough pressure because your reg is not allowing enough gas in fast enough to keep up with the marker so then you wouldn't have enough pressure (if your shooting 20x... with co2... after about 3 or 4 seconds you'd be likely to shoot icicles or have one for a tank lol). An expansion chamber creates additional volume PAST the reg so there is a SURPLUS of regulated air. So in a way shootdown DOES occur because of lack of volume. P.S.- there's an exp. chamber built into the lpk, in the LPK faq, an "expansion chamber" is a volumizer, and I'm sure it's there for the exact reason that we're mentioning. If you want to run low pressures (sub 650), some sort of volumizer is a good idea (for an r/t or e-grip). In fact, (i don't own one so i may be wrong) but doesn't the palmers have a volumizing chamber in it just for that reason? Anyway, this is all way past the technicality of the thread though, and I don't want to hijack it with what we're discussing (although I think u and I are the only ones reading this thread anymore). I like that some members actually do take the time to analyze what is being said, and yes exp chambers are almost a moot point, because instead of buying a reg, and this and that, what you're going to get the best results with is an HPA tank first. That pretty much gets rid of all the issues, and you don't have to worry about any of the finicky traits of co2. An hpa tank IMO is one of the best buys for the dollar! Wonder when manufacturers are going to start including them in package buys? Thanks for the feedback on this thread Jaron! I've always thought your posts were insightful, hope you can say the same for mine someday heh.

Jaron · #23 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spiritus Raptor

but in order to get a reg that can handle what you want to do with it, aka blocking liquid co2, you have to get a reg that can do that (and there aren't that many b/c most are designed for hpa). the least expensive and effective is the cmi reg. (~50) a bit less if you find a deal, and the palmers reg. (which is what i'm assuming your talking about~100 for the stab.)

True enough, not all regs can handle CO2, as I state here. But you need to pay extra for quality, capable products. Like I say here, a good regulator is one of the hidden costs to CO2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spiritus Raptor

And when you say it's from lack of pressure you are correct but everything we are discussing is dependent on what operating pressure you want to run at. You may not have enough pressure because your reg is not allowing enough gas in fast enough to keep up with the marker so then you wouldn't have enough pressure

At that point, you've got a problem with your input source, be it a faulty reg ( either HPA tank or secondary, ) drained tank, or cold CO2 ( more on that below. ) At that point an x chamber will be neither the cause nor solution to the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spiritus Raptor

(if your shooting 20x... with co2... after about 3 or 4 seconds you'd be likely to shoot icicles or have one for a tank lol).

Aside from the "tankcicle" you'd have other problems. A CO2 tank at only 40* F will only give about 580 psi, not enough to operate a stock Tippmann. At this point even a regulator can't help since it can't boost the pressure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spiritus Raptor

An expansion chamber creates additional volume PAST the reg so there is a SURPLUS of regulated air. So in a way shootdown DOES occur because of lack of volume.

No, an x chamber/volumizer doesn't act like a reservoir in this way. Fluid dynamics laws show that pressures drop uniformly, so once that valve opens, everything is vented. An x chamber / volumizer doesn't hold back any air for the next shot to use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spiritus Raptor

P.S.- there's an exp. chamber built into the lpk, in the LPK faq, an "expansion chamber" is a volumizer, and I'm sure it's there for the exact reason that we're mentioning. If you want to run low pressures (sub 650), some sort of volumizer is a good idea (for an r/t or e-grip). In fact, (i don't own one so i may be wrong) but doesn't the palmers have a volumizing chamber in it just for that reason?

The LPK volumizer is there to offset the lower operating pressure. The lower pressure means you need an increase in air volume to make everything still work inside. And no, a Palmer doesn't have a volumizing chamber so far as I know, at least not one sufficient for an LPK effect.

JBONE · #24 (**permalink**) 07-09-2008, 09:30 PM

any solutions on how to invert a tank on an a-5, but is still located on the grip

Pumbaa · #25 (**permalink**) 07-09-2008, 09:44 PM

Raptor, if you keep it up, Jaron will start putting in equations to prove it to you. He really does know what he's talking about. He didn't get all that rep by be being a nice guy, although he is that too.

Expansion chambers are a cheap bandaid to the real problem of poor regulation by Tippmann trying to create a marker that will run on both CO2 and HPA, 2 vastly diffferent environments.

Jbone, invert a tank? Please elaborate.

Jaron · #26 (**permalink**) 07-09-2008, 11:47 PM

Yeah, but equations make me drag out my old physics textbooks and I try not to bother their dust slumber.

Thanks for the vote of confidence though.

I'm guessing by "inverting" the tank he means a reverse drop-forward. JBone, what you're looking for is a reversed air source adapter ( ASA. ) Most markers have standard rails or screw attachments that make it easy to flip the ASA around. A-5's have a non-standard attachment though with the screw through the bottom of the handle. The most common method is to get a standard A-5 bottomline adapter, like this one here, and throw most standard ASA's on it, like done here. I've also seen specialty products that do the whole thing themselves, but they're only good for reversing the ASA. If you ever want to switch things around a bit, a standalone bottomline adapter can still be used for many things.

JBONE · #27 (**permalink**) 07-10-2008, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaron

Yeah, but equations make me drag out my old physics textbooks and I try not to bother their dust slumber.

Thanks for the vote of confidence though.

I'm guessing by "inverting" the tank he means a reverse drop-forward. JBone, what you're looking for is a reversed air source adapter ( ASA. ) Most markers have standard rails or screw attachments that make it easy to flip the ASA around. A-5's have a non-standard attachment though with the screw through the bottom of the handle. The most common method is to get a standard A-5 bottomline adapter, like this one here, and throw most standard ASA's on it, like done here. I've also seen specialty products that do the whole thing themselves, but they're only good for reversing the ASA. If you ever want to switch things around a bit, a standalone bottomline adapter can still be used for many things.

ya, sounds good........if im using a 20 oz tank, will i still be able to use my grip, or will the tank interfere

Jaron · #28 (**permalink**) 07-10-2008, 07:01 PM

Most ASA's are long enough so that the bulk of the tank won't be right next to the grip. However, I don't think you'll have more than 1" of clearance in front. It's also possible for the reversed tank to interfere with some front grips/stocks.

The Unrealist · #29 (**permalink**) 07-13-2008, 06:28 AM

Jaron, I'm not sure exactly how a reversed tank could interfere with any stock, save maybe a T-stock or T2W. Could you elaborate on that?

(Everyone else, sorry for encouraging him

).

Jaron · #30 (**permalink**) 07-13-2008, 06:10 PM

*pulls out the soapbox, sets up audience chairs, readies the admission desk.*

No, I said front stocks/grips, not buttstocks. If you reverse the ASA and have a really thick tank, it may get in the way of forestocks, like the A2, because you may not have enough room to slide your hand between the two. Also, if you have a long front vert grip it may need more room than the tank will leave. In these cases you don't need just a reversed ASA but a drop as well.

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