OK, here's a picture of what I talking about:


#1 is what I'm proposing; rotate the bolt so that you can put a notch in that ridge so that you can lock in the rail at certain degrees so that it doesn't budge.

#2 is what it was.

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ahhh, ok i see.
the idea with that current setup is that the nut glides along the rail so as to not lose how it's lined up, and tightening it down does the locking. if it's machined right it wont budge, but good idea nonetheless.

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The alignment rails serve three functions.

One, to keep the screw perpendicular to the rail. By elongating the surface area that is parallel with the rail, as you tighten the screw, it will want to pull itself perpendicular again.

Two, is to make it easier to tighten and loosen the screw. It's hard to see from the pics (sorry about that) but the square brackets also have lips on top and on bottom of the alignment rail in a U shape. It prevents the screw from rotating on the opposite side and can be adjusted with one hand.

Three, it extends the screw away from the rail to make it easier to grab and adjust.

If I rotate them 45 degrees, the parallel surface contact area is reduced and the screw will be more inclined to rotate laterally.

One alternative I was thinking of was possibly putting ridges (yes, like the chips) in the alignment rail that has the thumb screw to hold it in place, but that might be a pain to adjust. You would have to loosen the screw enough so that the ridges on the brackets would clear the ridges on the rail. By not using ridges, however, the screw can be loosened just enough to break the tension and allow for it slide into the next position. So I'm trying to avoid it for now but keeping it in mind, just in case.

I have a feeling that a thumb screw should be good enough because my red dot has thumb screws that tighten itself to the picatinny rail and it never comes loose. The front pin won't allow the top rail to slide forward and backwards. So the only thing it can do is rotate. The top rail's alignment hole is curved, so I think the screw will naturally want to stay in one spot. I would think there would have to be a very large force applied to slide the screw after it was tightened in order for it to move forwards and backwards.

I think the best way to make sure it tightens well is to use a screw with a fine machine thread so the pressure isn't broken as easily. I'm also thinking that there might be a need for a metal sleeve for the screw to tighten through. It would have to be positioned so that it allows the screw to tighten the sides of the rail but long enough that the threads of the screw don't touch the slots on the rail and allow it to slide easier. Tension from the screw would be holding the rail in place.

How easily the screw can move and well it tightens it securely is my only worry on this, but I think the only way to find out for certain is to test it once the final design is built and put it through it's paces.

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Exactly what I was thinking. Implementing this could possibly make the design, manufacture, and usage easer. It would eliminate the need to tighten or loosen any thumb screw all together.

Take off the thumb screws on the rear pin/bolt. Make a notch in the rear bolt (notch from side-to-side). Put long, threaded screw through the length of rail and connect it to the front (in a way so that is doesn't screw out of the frame when you twist it). And on the rear of the screw have a [relatively] large wheel so that you can turn it. Notch on rear pin/bolt lines up with threads of screw going threw frame.

How to use:
As you turn the long screw, it pulls the rear pin back and forth causing the rail to tilt. No need to tighten any thumb screws on side. If target is farther. turn wheel on back and shoot.

BTW, sorry if I'm stealing your thunder. Perhaps two different models could be made.

Just my thoughts.

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That's a really good idea! A long, course thread screw would allow for a decent adjustment rate, too. It does raise some new issues with disassembly, though. The top rail needs to be able to be removed to gain access to the set screws.

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Unless you drilled some holes in the top rail so you could stick a hex wrench right through it.

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Easy. Take the wheel off of the back and it will slide out of the front (after you thread it past the rear bolt of course). Then push the pins out from the side and lift the rail off of the frame.

To improve upon what I said earlier, instead of a notch in the rear pin There would be a threaded hole through the rear pin that the long screw would go through. Then the front screw would have a non-threaded hole (so that it doesn't move when the adjustment screw is turned) that the screw would also go through.

The adjustment screw itself would basically be a long threaded bolt with the mushroomed head. the head would be on the front, and the wheel on the back would hold it in place. The wheel itself could just screw on and off for disassembly.

That would make disassembly even easier because as soon as you remove the long screw (adjustment screw) the pins would fall out of the side.

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"For the sake of historical truth I must verify that only the Greeks, of all the adversaries that confronted us, fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death." -Adolf Hitler (From speech he delivered to Reich on May 4, 1941)
^^^true story

I think I understand what you're talking about but let me see if I got it right. The front pin (one closest to rising end of rail) has a threaded hole for the long screw to go through. The rear pin (pivot point) just has a smooth hole through it for screw to slide through.

After that, I'm a little bit lost as to the ends. What I have pictured in my mind is a slot on the front and back of the top rail going vertically so the screw passes through it as the rail rises and lowers. The front of the bottom rail has a hole through it for the screw to pass through and connect to a thumbscrewed wheel for adjusting. The back of the bottom rail has a similar hole and that's where the head of the screw sits and just spins as it's adjusted. I would assume a locknut would be required to keep everything in place.

Here are the only issues I can see with that idea so far:
1. What would keep the screw from spinning due to vibration? If set to one position over a long period of time, it may move and need readjusting.

2. The adjusting and pivot pins would probably need to be oversized so you can maneuver them into place during assembly. When the top rail is positioned in place, it basically boxes off the inside. So the only way to put the pins into place is from the outside. You would have to grab them to align them into the holes.

3. What would protect the threading on the long screw during adjustments? If it is rotating in the holes of the rails, over time, the threading would get worn down and would make the screw sloppy when in place because it's diameter has shrunk down.

4. Also, the adjusting and pivot pins might need to be bigger to allow a small diamter screw to travel through them and still be strong enough to not bend or break. Increasing the sizes would also increase the size of the rail to compensate for them. Might not be that big of an issue though.

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First I would like to say something that would clear up allot of problems. When I say rear pin I mean the one that is closest to the eye of the shooter. When I say rear pin I mean the one that will move back and forth. When I say front pin, it is the one closest to the muzzle of the marker and is the pivot point. Also, When I say front I mean the part that is closest to the muzzle of the marker.

1. I'm not sure if the screw would move do to vibration. If it does, I'm sure it wouldn't be much and the readjustment would be quick because of the design.

2. I don't think the pins will need to be over sized. Also, if what you mean by "boxed in" is that the outer frame keeps the pins from falling out the side when it is tilted, then the boxed in part is not needed. The Inside (part that moves) has the curved slot, and the Frame (outside shell that holds the movable rail and attaches to marker using dovetail) has a straight slot. The two slots can be the same size, width wise and length. That way, you put the pins in from the outside, and the adjustment screw holds them in place. You take out the adjustment screws, tilt the whole thing to the side, and the pins will fall out. Then the movable rail that sits inside of the outer frame will fall out when you turn it upside down.

3. this would be the biggest problem. In my eyes there are only three solutions:
a) use a stronger screw, material wise, that will not wear down as fast

b) use and off-the-shelf bolt so that when it wears down it is easy, cheap, and fast to replace

c) Use an extremely course screw, with very thick and wide spaced threads. On some adjustment screws/bolts made for heavy use you will see that the threads are widely spaced and thick. This would be the hardest way to go about solving the problem

4. You would only need to increase the diameter of the pins or use a stronger material to make the pins. If the diameter is increased, then the slots of the movable rail part, and the outer frame will need to be slightly taller. If that is the case, the whole thing would only be a few mm taller, maybe the same size depending on how you cut stuff.

Hope I answered some of your questions, I am working on some models that I can post to help you visualize what I am suggesting.

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"For the sake of historical truth I must verify that only the Greeks, of all the adversaries that confronted us, fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death." -Adolf Hitler (From speech he delivered to Reich on May 4, 1941)
^^^true story

That's what I mean. Why bother changing the entire design if the the rail is going to creep on you? If we can figure out how to add a tiny bit of friction (similar to a locknut), then the problem would be solved.

The rail slots have to be the same diameter, otherwise the top rail won't be rigid.

What I mean by boxed in is that once you put the two rails together, you can't access the inside with your fingers. Getting the pins out isn't the problem. Like you said, just tip it over. It's getting the pivot pin in. The first side is simple enough but lining up the pin to meet the hole inside the opposing side of the rail is where it will get tricky. You won't have hardly anything to grab onto to maneuver it. When I said oversized, I meant just make them longer than the width of the rail so you have something to hold onto with your finger tips.

A and B and probably the only options. Using a course thread screw with larger threads will cause problems. The thread will want to grab the rail hole and want to move forward or backwards. Over time, that would wear on the hole and the screw threads.

I think a small diameter, steel, machine thread scew is the only way to go. It would require more turns of the wheel to make adjustments though.

That's what I was getting at. To allow for clearance of the pin inside the rails, some additional height may be needed.

That would be nice to see. A picture is worth a thousand words.

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