The Comprehensive Thread on the Tippmann LPK

[WarCowboy]

Not to be a bother, but why in the world would anyone want the LPK? I know what the kit promises, but its garbage to me. I hate how people are willing to pay $100 for something that they dont need. Get a high output HPA bottle, a CP shorty reg, and an egrip. Good to go.
Whats the point in paying this for something that dont need to be messed with?

[JackRock]

Great way to derail the topic.

[WarCowboy]

Its better than supporting a rip off.
I find it my duty to do this sorta thing.
Question the reasoning behind why people buy into garbage like this, when there is a cheaper and alternative method that works better from the start.
Im not trying to be a jerk. I just deserve to know why it is anyone would want to pay $100 to down grade.
Buying a low pressure bottle doesnt make any since when your shooting a high pressure marker, that would have obviously done better with a high pressure bottle from the get go. If it isnt broke, dont fix it.
The idea behind this whole thing is to get more shots with the same amount of air right?
Is that worth $100 to you guys?
Is it worth it considering that most will buy a reg on top of the LPK, and the only real upgrade will be that they have a lighter internal mass, which will yield faster recharge times, but then only to be taken away because of the time it took a low pressure bottle to refill the volumizer.
Dont make any since to me.
All this, and for $100, and the cost of a hideous contraption hanging under your marker, also adding weight. Am I missing something here?
Whats the gain?

The reason I feel I need to ask questions like this, is for two reasons.
One, I own a paintball business, and I stand behind my products, and I dont rip people off as I cant stand it when other companies do.
Two, the reason companies continue to feed over priced junk to the players, is because no one else seems to question the idea behind the reasoning involved behind that given product.
I know companies make products to make money, but there is a fine line in doing that, or feeding you bogus claims with premium prices.
This is why they will sell you the whole "kit" trying to justify $100, but they wont sell you individual parts, such as just the lighter internals. Stupid marketing, and they need to fire their sells rep and design team.
If I had their design team's possition, the guys they have now would be in serious trouble, and I would put my money where my mouth is in a heartbeat.
I plan to stop this sorta thing before Im done, and as soon as people start joining in on this thing, the better for all.
They wont sell you something they cant. Dont settle for less than what you should expect.

And dont take this personal, my aggression is more driven toward the companies. Shame on them.

[JackRock]

Okay, except that this thread is about the LPK itself, not whether it is worth it or not. What an item is worth is what somebody will pay for it. To support part of your conclusion is that Tippmann has discontinued the kit.

Furthermore, there ARE gains to be had. Recharge rates are increased, and that is simple fact. Yes, it would seem that the tank would have to recharge the volumizer, but your assumption is that the tank doesn't start this process until well after the marker has cycled. This is not true. As soon as the pressure drops below the regulator's output setting, the tank begins to fill it up. This happens as soon as the hammer hits the valve and air flows into the chamber. In other words, as soon as air leaves the volumizer, it begins to enter the volumizer.

So, all this means that a lower pressure operating marker gets a higher recharge rate from an HP tank (as opposed to an LP tank), since the higher pressure input can fill the reg (and by daisy chain, the volumizer) much more quickly.

Also, the lower pressure creates a lower punch on the ball, allowing sheer volume to create the FPS necessary for normal ranges of play. Now, with some paints, that's moot and unnecessary. For others, it's an absolute must. I have played at games that if I had no LPK installed, I'd have left due to the low quality of paint coupled with my flatline. The LPK allowed me to have less breaks in my flatlined A5 than most other players did with straight barrels.

So, let's address your very first statement in this thread.

Originally Posted by WarCowboy

Not to be a bother, but why in the world would anyone want the LPK?

For the answer, I'd direct one to the first post, question #18:

Originally Posted by JackRock

18. Why would you recommend the LPK to me?
A. I don't. I am simply providing an explanation. Now, as to when I would or would not recommend it, it depends on your barrel. If you are using a flatline barrel system, go ahead. The Flatline with the LPK becomes much more tolerant of lower quality paint (though, not to all paints), and is a bit more accurate. If you're using a straight barrel...it's simply not worth it.

And before we go too far on a tangent, I have used the LPK, and used it for quite a long time. I do know that there is an impact on the performance of the A5, as I personally experienced many times. Consistency, accuracy, recharge rates, etc. Now, I have similar performance without the LPK. However, it took me a LOT more than $100 to do it, and I still have to deal with low quality paint breaking regularly (which I solve by not getting it when I have the option).

[WarCowboy]

Alright, I guess if you find it did something beneficial for you then I cannot argue this point.
And yes I guess something is worth what someone will pay, but by you all paying it, you set the price standard.
Its sorta like biting off your nose to spite your face, if you will...

And yes I know you had already answered the question I asked, but I should have been more careful as to how I asked it. I was trying to get the mass opinion on this, rather than asking you as a sole answerer.

As for the HPA tank, the reason I stated a low pressure output tank, is because I have took a notice as to how a lot of people will buy the (450psi) low pressure output reg version, rather than the (850psi) high pressure output reg version.
This is what I understand the point of the "Low pressure kit" is stating. So that you can use a low pressure bottle.
What I dont understand is why would I want to have the volumizer if I dont need it, because I have a high output HPA tank, rather than a slower charging low output HPA tank that might make use of the volumizer.
And no matter how quick the volumizer fills, it still slows the process down, even if a fraction. Physics would state that by increased volume, and agitated flow paths, rather than strait and directly into the port, would certainly add a lag time, no matter how small a fraction. I understand that this lag time is made up for with the volumizer being able to hold more volume in its self, hence the name, but even still it seems to me that if the pressure wasnt as low to the chamber, then a standard reg should have plenty of volume to do this task with a high output tank.
If the lighter internals where offered alone, then this would help to make it possible to start lowing the out put pressure of an inline regulator.

I just cant see this kit making enough improvement to even be considered.
I understand what you are saying about the lower pressure being easier on paint, but I have an objection to this to.
In my experience, I notice that most markers dont chop paint while shot in semi mode in slow intervals. With that being said, they will usually start having paint breaks when shooting at high rates of sustained fire.
Without the bolt chopping the paint before the paint gets properly seated taken into consideration, this to me usually means the loader is what is being hard on the paint, since its spinning much faster, and causing the paint to weaken up by the time it enters the breach aiding a break from the get go on brittle paint.
The techt squishy paddles seems to have solved a lot of the break issues involved with the cyclone feeding so forcefully at high speeds.
My argument is also this...
Why would you need a volumizer if you used a high output HPA tank, with a standard regulator, and the lighter internals, if the money was better spent on the reg, and high pressure output tank.
My cousin has an A5, and I notice that he rarely has ball breaks with this setup, and especially since he added the squishy paddles.
I understand how a volumizer works perfectly, and need no explanation for it. I just dont see what the need would be if you have the things I mentioned above.
With the inline reg directly in the tombstone, the volume should be plenty for the HPA tank to keep up with, so long as its the high output version.
The lighter internals would help the cycle speed no doubt, along with being softer on paint and its ridiculous you cant get them alone.

Anyhow, I guess I will have to make a video of this A5 SIR shooting with the setup I listed above to compare it to an LPK to prove whether or not my understandings are correct.

Again, take no offense to how I might come off in my post, I just like to think very complexly about things, with a strait to the point learning curve attitude.
So anyhow, thanks for replying so fast, and I appreciate your opinions on this thing.

[Jaron]

NOTE: Editing still in process.

Originally Posted by WarCowboy

I hate how people are willing to pay $100 for something that they dont need. Get a high output HPA bottle, a CP shorty reg, and an egrip. Good to go.
Whats the point in paying this for something that dont need to be messed with?

Aside from what Jack already said, let me add this.

First, no one said you had to get a low output tank to do this, only that an LPK runs at a lower pressure. Whether you get a low output bottle or a secondary regulator on an existing high output bottle won't make much difference.

Second, your recommendation of a CP Shorty fails in two parts in this context. First, CP regs have outputs of 200 psi and 500 psi, which is well below the operational pressure of any blowback marker I know of. Second, their site says you can only use a shorty on a Tippmann with an LPK. Regardless, Tippmanns that can run on 200 psi are very rare as most LPK's can only be dropped somewhere between 350 psi - 450 psi. As Jack said, the drop in pressure can only be accomplished by upping the volume of air used, which requires a volumizer, which is in the LPK. But in order for the system to work in semi-auto, the internals must be changed. The lower pressure doesn't have as much punch and so the stock hammer must be switched with a lighter one in order for it to be caught behind the sear. Again, these new parts are also in the LPK.

Third, what the Hell does an E-Grip even have to do with an LPK?


EDIT: Merged Posts.

Originally Posted by WarCowboy

As for the HPA tank, the reason I stated a low pressure output tank, is because I have took a notice as to how a lot of people will buy the (450psi) low pressure output reg version, rather than the (850psi) high pressure output reg version.
This is what I understand the point of the "Low pressure kit" is stating. So that you can use a low pressure bottle.

Only partially correct. While the LPK does allow the use of low output tanks, that is not the primary use for them. The main benefit, as stated, is gentler handling of paint and a more consistent velocity output.

Originally Posted by WarCowboy

I understand how a volumizer works perfectly, and need no explanation for it.

Apparently, you don't, as I'll refer to below.

Originally Posted by WarCowboy

What I dont understand is why would I want to have the volumizer if I dont need it, because I have a high output HPA tank, rather than a slower charging low output HPA tank that might make use of the volumizer.

You DO need the volumizer for the system to even work. It's not a matter of useless junk, it's due to the blowback design in the first place. It takes a fair amount of force to reverse the hammer's inertia and drive it back behind the sear in order for the marker to recock. When released from the valve, the air is split into both propelling the paintball out the muzzle and in cycling the internals. If you drop the operating pressure you will not have sufficient force to do either; the hammer will not reset and the paintball will be well under field velocity. So, using Boyle's Law, the lower pressure must be offset with an increase of volume. The lower pressure on both the hammer and paintball is offset by a greater "push" time granted by the higher volume of pressurized gas.

Originally Posted by WarCowboy

And no matter how quick the volumizer fills, it still slows the process down, even if a fraction. Physics would state that by increased volume, and agitated flow paths, rather than strait and directly into the port, would certainly add a lag time, no matter how small a fraction. I understand that this lag time is made up for with the volumizer being able to hold more volume in its self, hence the name, but even still it seems to me that if the pressure wasnt as low to the chamber, then a standard reg should have plenty of volume to do this task with a high output tank.
If the lighter internals where offered alone, then this would help to make it possible to start lowing the out put pressure of an inline regulator.

First, a regulator doesn't have any volume. It's simply a one-way pressure differential valve. So when you're talking about recharge rates, that's up to the regulator alone, not the LPK. Second, the volumizer IS attached directly to the tombstone so it IS a direct shot into the valve. It has to be right there for the pressure/volume offset to work correctly. It also doesn't act as a reservoir in the sense of storing air for the next shot. Fluid pressure drops uniformly so when that valve is opened, all air lines directly attached to it, volumizer included, are emptied at the same rate.

Now yes, adding additional volume can impact the overall recharge time of the system. But you're also talking about such small volumes when compared to relatively high pressures that this lag is minuscule. If an Automag X-Valve can recharge 26x / sec, I think it safe to say that even bare-bone HPA regs can fully recharge an LPK 20x / sec. Anytime you start shooting over 15 bps, you run into all sorts of limiting factors before you consider the recharge rate of the pneumatic system.

Originally Posted by WarCowboy

I just cant see this kit making enough improvement to even be considered.
I understand what you are saying about the lower pressure being easier on paint, but I have an objection to this to.
In my experience, I notice that most markers dont chop paint while shot in semi mode in slow intervals. With that being said, they will usually start having paint breaks when shooting at high rates of sustained fire.
Without the bolt chopping the paint before the paint gets properly seated taken into consideration, this to me usually means the loader is what is being hard on the paint, since its spinning much faster, and causing the paint to weaken up by the time it enters the breach aiding a break from the get go on brittle paint.

Be careful you don't confuse breaking paint with chopping paint. Chopping paint is when the bolt slams home before the ball is completely in the breach. Breaking paint is when it's put under too much stress in the breach while being fired ( either from a too small bore or a too weak shell. ) You've started to remark on some of the limiting factors I mentioned in the paragraph above, most notably the hopper. And yes, a high RoF also makes chopping more likely. However, even at normal rates of fire on a pure semi-auto trigger you can run into problems with breaking paint. Some paint is designed particularly for speedball tourneys and low pressure markers. With the numerous soft targets in speedball, like air bunkers, baggy/padded clothing, soft masks, etc, some paint is designed with a very thin shell that's more likely to break on impact. Try shooting X-Ball gold or premium Evil paint from a stock A-5 and tell me what you see. I'll wager almost half the shots will break in the barrel because the thin shells just can't cope with the stress of being slammed with more than 200 psi of air. Paint gets more brittle as the mercury drops too, so what about playing in cold temperatures? Many people can't play with the paint of their choice, they have to work with what the local field sells. If they have to live with tourney paint or if they can't get specialized winter balls, they have to find some way to shoot what they've got. The lower pressure of the LPK means less stress on a ball when fired which can do wonders in some situations.

Originally Posted by WarCowboy

My argument is also this... Why would you need a volumizer if you used a high output HPA tank, with a standard regulator, and the lighter internals, if the money was better spent on the reg, and high pressure output tank.

As mentioned above, the volumizer is only needed when the operating pressure is dropped so low that you need extra air volume to compensate for it. I know a few people who have experimented with the LPK internals alone and ditched the volumizer. The results I heard came to something of an "LPK Light" where they were able to significantly drop the operating pressure, through a secondary regulator, but still couldn't reach as low a level as with a volumizer.

Originally Posted by WarCowboy

its ridiculous you cant get [the LPK internals] alone.

I don't disagree here.

I'm not trying to rag on you here. Just offering a bit of explanation as to how an LPK works and the benefits it can bring. Personally, I don't one so don't feel as if I'm getting defensive on a purchase I haven't made. I don't have a problem getting winter ball, and most events I attend either supply decent paint for high pressure markers or allow me to bring my own. Also, my style of play isn't one that would drastically benefit from an LPK. I could use $100 dollars elsewhere that would provide a much bigger payoff. But I recognize that's not the case for everyone.

[JackRock]

Rock. Now we're talking

Originally Posted by WarCowboy

And yes I guess something is worth what someone will pay, but by you all paying it, you set the price standard.
Its sorta like biting off your nose to spite your face, if you will...

True. And that's probably why very few kits were sold, and none new, now.

Originally Posted by WarCowboy

As for the HPA tank, the reason I stated a low pressure output tank, is because I have took a notice as to how a lot of people will buy the (450psi) low pressure output reg version, rather than the (850psi) high pressure output reg version.
This is what I understand the point of the "Low pressure kit" is stating. So that you can use a low pressure bottle.

Well, I can tell you about 98% of LPK users (self included) use HPA tanks, not LPA. Furthermore, the intent of the kit is to create low pressure operation, not to use a different tank.

Originally Posted by WarCowboy

What I dont understand is why would I want to have the volumizer if I dont need it, because I have a high output HPA tank, rather than a slower charging low output HPA tank that might make use of the volumizer.

Ah, but pressure compensates for volume, and vice versa. Without the volumizer being directly attached to the tombstone, the marker doesn't get the air fast enough to perform at the 375psi that is standard for the LPK. If it is located elsewhere (or not at all), you will find that the marker still operates typically around 550-650psi. Kinda defeating the point of a LOW pressure kit.

Originally Posted by WarCowboy

And no matter how quick the volumizer fills, it still slows the process down, even if a fraction. Physics would state that by increased volume, and agitated flow paths, rather than strait and directly into the port, would certainly add a lag time, no matter how small a fraction. I understand that this lag time is made up for with the volumizer being able to hold more volume in its self, hence the name, but even still it seems to me that if the pressure wasnt as low to the chamber, then a standard reg should have plenty of volume to do this task with a high output tank.
If the lighter internals where offered alone, then this would help to make it possible to start lowing the out put pressure of an inline regulator.

Yes, the recharge time is slightly slowed down, but not nearly as much as to make it actually the same as or worse than the marker alone. Sure, it's not as fast as "instant", but it's still faster than not having the LPK at all.

Originally Posted by WarCowboy

I just cant see this kit making enough improvement to even be considered.
I understand what you are saying about the lower pressure being easier on paint, but I have an objection to this to.
In my experience, I notice that most markers dont chop paint while shot in semi mode in slow intervals. With that being said, they will usually start having paint breaks when shooting at high rates of sustained fire.
Without the bolt chopping the paint before the paint gets properly seated taken into consideration, this to me usually means the loader is what is being hard on the paint, since its spinning much faster, and causing the paint to weaken up by the time it enters the breach aiding a break from the get go on brittle paint.
The techt squishy paddles seems to have solved a lot of the break issues involved with the cyclone feeding so forcefully at high speeds.
My argument is also this...
Why would you need a volumizer if you used a high output HPA tank, with a standard regulator, and the lighter internals, if the money was better spent on the reg, and high pressure output tank.
My cousin has an A5, and I notice that he rarely has ball breaks with this setup, and especially since he added the squishy paddles.
I understand how a volumizer works perfectly, and need no explanation for it. I just dont see what the need would be if you have the things I mentioned above.
With the inline reg directly in the tombstone, the volume should be plenty for the HPA tank to keep up with, so long as its the high output version.
The lighter internals would help the cycle speed no doubt, along with being softer on paint and its ridiculous you cant get them alone.

This is mostly true, and I won't argue much. Keep in mind that this article was written before the TechT paddles were even a concept (I wrote the first version a few years back). And yes, people are learning how to get the word out, so companies are making better paint, and the players are better educated about which ones work, and which ones just suck. As I've said, I even solve this issue by staying away from the worst.

But, the regulator will not work as a volumizer. If you think that going from the tank to the volumizer creates a lag time (which, as you noted, is extremely small), the regulator by virtue of gas regulation does this same phenomenon 10-15 times worse. You will also find that the small antechamber on the top of an in-line reg will not NEARLY be enough volume for the marker, since the operation of the bolt requires the air to be immediately available. Since we both agree that there's always a recharge rate greater than "instant", this is simply not possible to use as a volumizer.

Also, as Jaron posted above, the CP reg at an output pressure of 200psi will not operate any Tippmann I've heard of, LPK or not. Most LPK'd Tippies have operational difficulties at less than 350psi, and are usually inoperable at 325psi.

Originally Posted by WarCowboy

Anyhow, I guess I will have to make a video of this A5 SIR shooting with the setup I listed above to compare it to an LPK to prove whether or not my understandings are correct.

Please do. I'm interested to see it.

WarCowboy, from your post of being a shop owner (since you mentioned products, not services), and from the rest of your comments, I'd venture a guess that you usually use what most players refer to as a "speedball" marker (spool valve, or some such). The thing when dealing with a blowback is that the mechanics change, and what is required to do on one can cause the other to dysfunction completely.

Regarding CP's claim that these would work with Tippmann markers with LPKs installed, one would have to get the 500psi version to have a chance. But, if one goes ONLY with that, and no LPK, the marker will not function properly.

Originally Posted by WarCowboy

Again, take no offense to how I might come off in my post, I just like to think very complexly about things, with a strait to the point learning curve attitude.
So anyhow, thanks for replying so fast, and I appreciate your opinions on this thing.

No problem.

[WarCowboy]

Wow! You guys are as hard at it as I am.
Finally some worth forum posters!

I guess I may have punched it harder than needed, but I get that way sometimes, and gets excellent re cap post like these stirring.
I may need to rethink the CP reg if I cant get a harder spring than the high pressure version I have now, but my cousin and friend both run one on their A5's, and they dont seem to have any trouble.
But I will admit that both dont shoot ridiculous rates of fire either, so I cannot make an accurate argument at this point. But I will still try and make a video regardless.
If it fails so be it, and I will be the first to admit it at that point.

As for my assumption about the LPA tanks, its just that I see a lot of post in multiple forums stating thats what they run with theirs, and how they have gotten their markers as low as 450psi.
This could be rubbish, but I was taking things for face value, and maybe shouldnt have without hearing more.
Anyhow, I will follow up as soon as I can with what I find is the case with my setup.

[Jaron]

The LPK simply needs a lower pressure input. If a player is getting an HPA tank for the first time, getting the LP output saves them from needing a secondary reg for the LPK. Anyone that already had a high output HPA tank or CO2 would indeed be wasting money when they could pick up a secondary reg for the money, which would be more useful in more places.

[therealmikeg]

I run a LPK on my A-5 at a hair above 300psi. I regulate velocity strictly with my PPS Stab and have consistency of about +-7fps. I also run my A-5 on full auto with a APE 2.0 e-grip set to the MGRF which is set to the board max.

If you think the reason to run the LPK is to use a LPA bottle, then you obviously have too many LPA bottles. I run the LPK on my A-5 to go on the same tank for twice as long.

Not only that, but my gun is ridiculously quiet compared to other markers. Quieter than other A-5s with heavily ported barrels? Yes. Quieter than electros with all kinds of barrels? Yes.

While I don't care about how loud my marker is, it is something that people take notice of. Its a side-effect of the lighter internals.


The other big advantage of the LPK is how many shots you get when your tank starts getting low. I think most A-5 owners consider their tank low when they're reading 800psi on the reg. I find that I have hundreds of shots left.