I could see how less lethal weapons could be seen as an excuse to use more force... but only in certain hands. Take, for example, that bounty hunter guy who is on TV. I've never watched the show myself (I don't like to watch TV much), but I heard he is an ex-felon, and is therefore not allowed to carry a gun. So instead he carries one of those Pepperball A-5s. That's probably more force than is necessary, especially for a private citizen. I can't say I'd be happy to see a bunch of civilians carrying these things and thinking it's okay to use them because they're not going to kill anyone.

On the flipside, where law enforcement is concerned, I think less lethal weapons are great. That FN 303 is used in part to break up inmate fights on a prison yard. The alternative to that is a shotgun, or in extreme cases, a rifle. Obviously officers don't want to kill inmates, but neither do they want inmates killing each other. A less lethal weapon like this means that the officers can safely keep their distance, but still break up a fight without having to risk killing or severely injuring any inmates (many of whom are lawsuit happy and start suing the state).

P.S. Indiejeep, I'm glad you're not afraid to express your opinion... there are always two sides to every coin

__________________

Shhhh! You got shot by a GIRL!
TEAM VEGAS FIRE SQUAD

first, i've seen cops taze a guy running away from robbing a convience store, guy didn't have a weapon of any kind he was running and they chased him a hit him with the tazer rather than grab him and force him to the ground. I'm not saying that all cops do this all the time or even much at all, but just because they aren't lethal they they shouldn't be used as a first action, the cops should have grabbed the guy, escepiaclly since he wasn't armed and no one was in danger. On the other hand less than lethal weapons are a great tool.

Rock salt in a shotgun= poor mans less than lethal force. (hurts like hell too)

__________________
98% of paintballers...eh, who cares

You didnt see a weapon. Doesnt mean there wasnt one. And even if there wasnt one, how does an officer know he doesnt have a gun or knife in his waist band or pocket.

I mean be reasonable. The suspect just robbed a store, and is fleeing from the police. If I am an officer should I, 1. Tackle the guy and risk getting a knife stuck in my ribs and have to shoot said suspect and kill him, or 2. hit him with the taser and both of us continue breathing. Is it worth my life to take the chance? No, I dont think so. He committed a crime, and then ran from the police. No one forced him to rob the store. No one forced him to run from the police. The officers job is to get the bad guy. Bad guy was arrested. No injuries to him or the officer... So I dont see the issue with this in the least.

I have been in Law Enforcement Communications for almost ten years now. And to those people out there not in law enforcement, you have no clue what really goes on out there in the real world. The news may show 5% of the bad stuff the bad guys do. It isnt nice and it isnt pretty. There are alot of bad people doing alot of bad things. When I say you have no ideal, you really dont.

As far as the bondsman the one poster mentioned, you know I have no use for them what so ever. They are the ones that went the bond on these POS's and let them out of jail. They deserve no respect. They are the ones that allow the scum back on the street so they can go hurt some other innocent person.

End rant.

__________________
JesterTLS


"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

Here is a perfect example I encountered last night. I saw a male infront of a local bar night that I knew had a bench warrant for his arrest. I called for another unit to assist in his arrest. We enterd the bar and found him sitting at the bar. We approach, identifed ourselves and told him he was under arrest. We each took ahold of an arm and asked him to walk outside, he immediatly started to fight, he kicked the other officer in the groin and I began to fight with him in the bar. I had control of him but was being surounded by other patrons of the bar who were his friends. The other officer called for assistance and OSP showed up but was being blocked from assisting by the patrons in the bar who refused to assist me. I continued to attempt to get cuffs on him but he refused to cooperate. I used pepper spray on him and it had no effect, he broke free and began to run, OSP attempted to stop him but was unable to and a foot chase ensued. After about 2 blocks I again tackled him and a fight started, OSP was the first to arrive to assist, and was warned 3 times to stop fighting, he refused and was tazed 5 times before he complied. We found a huge amount of crack cocaine on him and a small caliber gun in the crotch of his pants. Once at the jail they found 3 razors in his shoe. He told me if he could have gotten to the gun he would have shot me.

Just shows, you never know what they have or thier intentions, so always be on the safe side and make sure you go home to your family and friends.

__________________
Play the game with Honor, Integrity, and Pride.
www.deltasquad.net

fair enough, that is the perfect example for it

__________________
98% of paintballers...eh, who cares

Oh, you have to hate it when you spray them and it doenst effect them. We had a guy that lived over in the city I use to work for. Big ole boy that liked to get drunk and fight, wasnt overly bright. They hit him with spray one night and he looked at them and said, "I dont like that stuff." Then proceded to toss the officers around. The older he got the better he would coperate with the officers. But there was about four years there when the guys got called over there, they knew three or four had to go to get him restrained.

__________________
JesterTLS


"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

I am not saying these tools should not be able to be implemented. To be quite frank, I think these are brilliant tools that could have place in modern peacekeeping, but any tool that can be used to assert control can be used in a corrupt or inappropriate fashion. The use of tools that do not literally blow a hole in someone's body have FAR less social stigma than the discharge of a firearm and thus could be abused with less questions or concerns from others.


To clarify, I feel that law enforcement is indeed a dignified, helpful, and greatly beneficial component of our society. I would not want to live in anarchist state. I have family members in law enforcement , and like you, they truly care about their communities and help to make a positive impact.

Unfortunately, it would be wrong to deny that there are those that do abuse these powers with unjust motives, and we must still be weary of them.

Fortunately, good officers are on the look out for them too! Thanks for what you do!

__________________
Think Freely. Think Frequently.

Indiejeep;
Thanks for the complement, I agree in the wrong hand with the wrong motive these tools can be used for the wrong reasons. And just like in every profession there are going to be bad apples. All we can do is maintain our integrity and honor and deal with those who refuse to uphold the oath as we would any other criminal.

Jester...
Believe it or not we have 4-5 people we deal with regularly and have to fight with that the spray does not affect at all. I think the use it as mouth wash. and like the guy you are talking about, these guys like to fight and they do not care who they fight.

__________________
Play the game with Honor, Integrity, and Pride.
www.deltasquad.net

Hey, fighting can be fun. Just fighting cops, women, children, etc... is just grimey.

My thoughts exactly indiejeep

__________________
98% of paintballers...eh, who cares

" it would be wrong to deny that there are those that do abuse these powers with unjust motives, and we must still be weary of them. "


That is very true. No matter what, there will always be those that do things that is uncalled for and make it bad ont he good people doing those jobs. I just hate to see the law enforcement officers getting a bad rap because of the stereotype people have about hating cops. There are bad ones. But it is truely the minority that misuse their position.

__________________
JesterTLS


"I find your lack of faith disturbing."